Talk:Maurya Empire

Reasons are :-

1- Inappropriate according to historians and archeologist -

Hugh Bowden (British Historian) :

“ Pg.122- India’s first approach towards becoming a unified state occurred under the first three kings of the Mauryan Empire. The founder of the dynasty, Chandragupta Maurya (c.310-286 BCE) , king of Magadha in Eastern India, unfied under his control the other kingdom of the Gangetic Plain. His grandson, Ashoka (c.270-234 BCE) , consolidated Mauryan imperial rule, extending it into eastern and southern “

The Times ancient civilizations. Internet Archive. London : Times Books. 2002. ISBN 978-0-00-710859-6.

John Haywood (British historian)

" Pg.24 - In 321 Chandragupta Maurya (321-c. 293) seized the throne of the kingdom of Magadha, overthrowing the Nanda dynasty. Chandragupta spent most of his reign building a strong central administration, but he defeated a Seleucid invasioin, adding all of northwest India to his domains. His son Bindusara also conquered much of southern India. Under Ashoka the Mauryan empire reached its greatest extent. Appalled by his bloody conquest of the east coast kingdom of Kalinga in 261 Ashoka abjured further warfare and, becoming a Buddhist, tried to impose Buddhist standards of behavior on his people."

Haywood, John (1997). Atlas of world history. Internet Archive. New York : Barnes & Noble Books. ISBN 978-0-7607-0687-9.

Robert Roswell Palmer (American historian)

" Pg.116 - Based on Magadha in the Ganges valley, the Mauryan empire flourished from 322 B.C., when its founder Chandragupta seized the capital city of Patahputra. to 185 B.C., when the last ruler of the dynasty died. Chandragupta united north India from the mouths of the Ganges to the watershed west of the Indus. He then took over, from a satrap of the Alexandrian empire, the regions of Arachosia and Gandhara up to the Hindu Kush mountains. His son Bindusara extended the empire to about the fifteenth parallel of latitude, except for Kalinga on the east coast, which was later annexed by Asoka. The reign of Asoka (273-232 B.C.) -saw the height of the Mauryan empire, and is one of the great periods of Indian history. Shortly after the conquest of Kahnga Asoka was converted to Buddhism, whereupon, forswearing mihtarism. he devoted himself to the welfare of his people and the propagation of Buddhism. His missionaries brought Buddhism and Indian civilization to Ceylon and elsewhere."

Rand McNally and R. R Palmer (Robert Roswell). Chicago.Rand McNally atlas of world history |ISBN 978-0-528-0-1447-5.

Patrick K. O'Brien (British historian)

" Pg.46 - By 500 Bc kingdoms existed throughout the Ganges region. Chief among these was Magadha, favourably located for control both of riverborne trade and of the sources of raw materials such as iron. Magadha gradually expanded at the expense of its neighbours and before 297 Bc its king, Chandragupta Maurya, ruled most of north India . His grandson Ashoka (r. 272-231 Bc) further extended the empire, conquering Kalinga in 261 Bc, and only the extreme south retained its independence. Pillar and rock edicts mark the extent of Mauryan political authority: these proclaimed Ashoka’s ethical code of social responsibility and toleration. It was an age of peace and prosperity."

Philip's Atlas of World History: From the Origins of Humanity to the Year 2000.1999. ISBN 978-0-540-07858-5.

John F. Cady(American historian)

" Pg.34 - The India from whose culture Southeast Asian peoples borrowed so extensively was partly united for the first time politically in the third century B.C. The Mauryan Empire (330 to 180 By.) included the north Indian valleys westward to Greek Bactria and southward along the eastern Indian coast to the mouths of the Kistna and Godavari Rivers. Mauryan power centering at Patna in the lower Ganges Valley reached its peak in the mid-third century B.c. under the leadership of the great Asoka, who was a political exemplar of Buddhist ideals and humanitarian principles of government. Asoka unified and promoted the Buddhist faith without persecuting dissident elements; he built India’s first shrines of cut stone and burned brick; he sponsored missionary efforts within India and beyond. Mauryan rule declined rapidly after his death in 237 B.c."

Cady, John F. (John Frank).Southeast Asia: its historical development. New York, McGraw-Hill.

Geoffrey Parker (British historian )

" Pg.28 - A further turning point came in 320 BC when Chandragupta Maurya seized the state of Magadha on the lower Ganges, and occupied large parts of central India, and in 305 BC annexed the province of Trans-Indus from the successors of Alexander the Great (see page 32). Chandragupta’s grandson Ashoka (273-232 BC) expanded this Mauryan empire southwards, bringing the greater part of the sub-continent under his rule and inscribing edicts on pillars and rock-faces all over India as a permanent reminder of his power (map 2). Ashoka’s death introduced a troubled period, punctuated by invasions of both Greeks and nomads who founded states in the north-west, such as the Kushan empire, where Hellenistic and Indian influences mingled. Further south, the Satavahanas of the Deccan ruled a state that straddled the peninsula by AD 150."

The Times compact history of the world.London : Times Books. 2008. ISBN 978-0-00-726731-6.

Gerald Danzer (American historian)

" Pg.44 The Mauryan Empire reached out from the Ganges valley to annex the Indus valley peoples shortly after the death of Alexander the Great. Asoka extended the empire in all directions, but had an even greater impact in spreading the teachings of the Buddha throughout his realm. He had pillars erected at crossroads locations covered with edicts written in stone to proclaim his ideals." ..."In the generation after Alexander, however, information resurfaces with the establishment of the Mauryan Empire by Chandragupta in 324 BCE. By 240 bce the Mauryan Empire reached its greatest extent, controlling the great river valleys of both the Ganges and Indus rivers. Of even more importance was the conversion of the emperor, Asoka, to Buddhism. "

Danzer, Gerald A. (2000). An atlas of world history. Ann Arbor, MI : Borders Press. ISBN 978-0-681-46572-5.

Jackson J. Spielvogel (American historian)

" Pg.106 Seleucid Kingdom Another Hellenistic monarchy was founded by the general Seleucus (suh-LOO-kuss), who established the Seleucid dynasty of Syria. This was the largest of the Hellenistic kingdoms and controlled much of the old Persian Empire from Turkey in the west to India in the east, although the Seleucids found it increasingly difficult to maintain control of the eastern territories. In fact, an Indian ruler named Chandragupta Maurya (chundruh-GOOP-tuh MOWR-yuh) (324-301 B.c.E.) created a new Indian state, the Mauryan Empire, and drove out the Seleucid forces. His grandson Asoka (uh-SOH-kuh) (269-232 b.c.e.) extended the empire to include most of India and is considered the greatest ruler in India’s history. Asoka, a pious Buddhist, sought to convert the remaining Greek communities in northwestern India to his religion and even sent Buddhist missionaries to Greek rulers. The Seleucid rulers maintained relations with the Mauryan Empire. Trade was fostered, especially in such luxuries as spices and jewels. Seleucus also sent Greek and Macedonian ambassadors to the Mauryan court. Best known of these was Megasthenes (muh-GAS-thuh-neez), whose report on the people of India remained one of the West’s best sources of information on India until the Middle Ages. "

Spielvogel, Jackson J. (2012). Western civilization. Internet Archive. Boston, MA : Wadsworth Cengage Learning. ISBN 978-0-495-91329-0.

Myra Shackley (British archaeologist)

" Pg.67 - After Alexander’s retreat from the Indus the Emperor Chandragupta Maurya established the first indigenous empire to exercise control over much of the subcontinent, and eventually, under his successors, this covered all but the tip of the peninsula. Asoka, the greatest of the Mauryan emperors, took power in 272 BC and extended the empire from Afghanistan to Assam and from the Himalayas to Mysore, leaving behind a series of inscriptions recording his edicts on pillars and rocks across the continent."

Shackley, Myra L. (2006). Atlas of travel and tourism development. Internet Archive. Amsterdam ; Boston : Elsevier. ISBN 978-0-7506-6348-9.

2- Rejection by historians statements-

Ram Sharan Sharma (Indian historian) His statement will strongly refute the propagated map about presence of holes in map . There was large army and strict judicial system for tribals control.

" Pg.355 - मौर्य राजनीतिक इतिहास का सबसे बड़ा तथ्य मग॒ध साम्राज्य वी स्थापना था, जिसमें सुदूर दक्षिण को छोडकर सपूर्ण भारत शामिल था । यह साम्राज्य तलवार के जोर से स्थापित किया गया था और इसकी रक्षा भी तलवार के जोर से ही हो सकती थी। बाहय सुरक्षा तथा आंतरिक शांति दोनो के लिए प्रबल सैन्यशक्ति आवश्यक थी। .. साम्राज्य के अंदर और उसकी सीमा पर रहनेवाले जनजात्तीय लोग बराबर परेशानी का कारण बने रहते थे। इस सबके लिए विशाल स्थायी सेना और चुस्त दंडव्यवस्था थी। "

English Translation of his statement - "The biggest fact of Maurya political history was the establishment of the Magadha Empire, which included the whole of India except the far south. This empire was established with the strength of the sword and it could be protected only with the strength of the sword. Strong military power was necessary for both external security and internal peace..The tribal people living inside the empire and on its borders were equally a cause of trouble. So for this, there was a huge permanent army and tight judicial system."

Sharma, Ramsharan (1990). Prachin Bharat Me Rajneetik Vichar Avam Sansthae , ISBN 9788126707584

Charles Allen (British Historian)

According to him Ashoka historical record was cleansed so effectively that his name was largely forgotten for almost two thousand years. But few mysterious stone monuments and inscriptions miraculously survived -

" Pg.2 - Ashoka Maurya—or Ashoka the Great as he was later known—holds a special place in the history of Buddhism and India. At its height in around 250 BCE, his empire stretched across the Indian subcontinent to Kandahar in the east, and as far north as the Himalayas. Through his quest to govern by moral force alone, Ashoka transformed Buddhism from a minor sect into a major world religion, while simultaneously setting a new yardstick for government that had lasting implications for all of Asia. His bold experiment ended in tragedy, however, and in the tumult that followed the historical record was cleansed so effectively that his name was largely forgotten for almost two thousand years. Yet, a few mysterious stone monuments and inscriptions miraculously survived the purge. "

Allen, Charles (2012). Ashoka : the search for India's lost emperor. New York : Overlook Press. ISBN 978-1-4683-0071-0.

3- Inappropriate according to ancient historical evidences-

• That map clearly denying Greek historian on the result of Seleucid–Mauryan war where Seleucid Empire's eastern satrapies( Gedrosia,Arachosia, Aria, and Paropamisadae) ceded to Mauryan Empire :

" Seleucus crossed the Indus and waged war with Sandrocottus [Maurya], king of he Indians, who dwelt on the banks of that stream, until they came to an understanding with each other and contracted a marriage relationship. Some of these exploits were performed before the death of Antigonus and some afterward."

— Appian, History of Rome, The Syrian Wars 55

" The geographical position of the tribes is as follows: along the Indus are the Paropamisadae, above whom lies the Paropamisus mountain: then, towards the south, the Arachoti: then next, towards the south, the Gedroseni, with the other tribes that occupy the seaboard; and the Indus lies, latitudinally, alongside all these places; and of these places, in part, some that lie along the Indus are held by Indians, although they formerly belonged to the Persians. Alexander [III 'the Great' of Macedon] took these away from the Arians and established settlements of his own, but Seleucus Nicator gave them to Sandrocottus [Chandragupta], upon terms of intermarriage and of receiving in exchange five hundred elephants. " — Strabo 15.2.9

• That map clearly denying Kalinga War also as there was huge hole shown in the kalinga region:

"Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Priyadarsi(Ashoka)conquered the Kalingas eight years after his coronation. One hundred and fifty thousand were deported, one hundred thousand were killed and many more died (from other causes). After the Kalingas had been conquered, Beloved-of-the-Gods came to feel a strong inclination towards the Dharma, a love for the Dharma and for instruction in Dharma. Now Beloved-of-the-Gods feels deep remorse for having conquered the Kalingas. "

— Ashoka, Major Rock Edict No. 13

• Even though Ashoka defined the boundaries of his empire four times in various inscriptions (with same lines) but he never mentioned any inner hole or unconquered region inside his empire. No one denies this fact .This suggests that Ashoka's empire was likely contiguous, with no significant unconquered regions within its borders :

Sav[r]atravijite [De]va[nam]priyasaPriyadrashisa y[e] cha [a]mtayatha [Choda] PamdiyaSatiyaputro KeradaputroTambapamni…,

-Second Rock-Edict: Shahbazgarhi

Sav[a]ta vijitsi Devanampiyas[a] Piyadasis[a] lajine ye cha amta [a]tha Choda Pam[di]yaSatiyaputo Ke[lala]putoTamba[pa]mni..

-Second Rock Edict: Kalsi

sa[vatra vi]jitasi Devanapriyasa Priyadrashisarajine ye cha ataatha [Choda] Pa[mdiya] Sa[ti]ya[p]u[tra] Keralaputra [Tam]bapani..

-Second Rock Edict: Mansehra

Sav[r]atravijite [De]va[nam]priyasaPriyadrashisa Ye Ca anta ataChoda, Pandiya, Satiyaputo, Ketalaputo, Tam bapanni, Antiyogonaama, Yonalaja....

-Second Rock Edict :Girnar

—Translation: Everywhere in the conquered dominions of king Priyadarsin, the beloved-of the gods, and the dominions on the boarders as those of the Choda (the Colas), Pandiya (the Pandyas). Satiyaputo (The Satiyaputras) and the Ketalaputo (the Keralaputras), as far as Tam bapanni (Tamraparni) the Yavana king named Antiyogonaama (Antiyoka) and the other neighbouring kings of this king Antiyoka.

4- Not universally accepted -

That map is not universally accepted also . Check Mauryan Empire map by :

• Britannica:
• World History Encyclopaedia :
• ASI (Archeological Survey Of India) referenced rough Map of Mauryan Empire :
• Indian New Parliament carved Mauryan Empire over mural :
• British Historian Geoffrey Parker created map on Mauryan Empire Map:
• British historian Patrick K. O'Brien created Mauryan Empire Map: ,
• American historian Gerald Danzer created Mauryan Empire Map:
• British Historian Charles Allen created Mauryan Empire Map:

5- Inappropriate evidences in support -

• Hermann Kulke and Dietmar Rothermund deny about presence of any hole in Arachosia, Gedrosia, Paropamisadae region but that map included those region in hole:

" In 305 BC Seleukos Nikator, who had emerged as the ruler of the eastern part of Alexander’s vast domain, crossed the Hindukush mountains in order to claim Alexander’s heritage in India. Chandragupta met him at the head of a large army in the Panjab and stopped his march east. In the subsequent peace treaty Seleukos ceded to Chandragupta all territories to the east of Kabul as well as Baluchistan. "

" The history of the Maurya empire after Chandragupta’s defeat of Seleukos and the acquisition of the northwest remains a matter for conjecture. Since at the time of Ashoka’s accession to the throne in 268 BC the empire extended as far as present Karnataka, we may conclude that either Chandragupta or his son and successor Bindusara (c. 293 to 268 BC) had conquered these southern parts of India."

• Romila Thapar : Romila is a rejected historian in India. She was very famous for over glorifying Mughals and mis-portraying Indian kings. She is not neutral for history source.
• Stanley Jeyaraja Tambiah : He actually not define any boundaries about the holed empire. So he is not reliable for making holed empire.
• Robin Coningham & Ruth Young: He also quote that pg.451-" Asoka’s inscriptions suggests the extent of the Mauryan Empire , it extended up to Kandahar in Afghanistan , with the kingdom of Antiochus II of Syria lying to the west. Its eastern frontier extended to Orissa . It included almost the entire subcontinent, except the southernmost parts ". However, he clearly not define the boundaries on the basis of holes.But he only quoted others work.
• Tim Dyson : On him , I am agree with the LearnIndology statement: "Why is Tim Dyson being used in a history article on India? Even in his own words, he stated (QI knew zero about India's general history) here on this Youtube lecture @42 seconds. Tim Dyson is a demographer, not a historian. This shows in his writing, he used weasel words like "seems" and "possibly" that would not pass a DYK. Example [note 34]

The evolution of Indo-Aryan society in the centuries before c.200 bce not only saw increased segregation with respect to caste, it also seems to have seen increased differentiation with respect to gender. ... Therefore, by the time of the Mauryan Empire the position of women in mainstream Indo-Aryan society seems to have deteriorated. Customs such as child marriage and dowry were becoming entrenched; and a young women's purpose in life was to provide sons for the male lineage into which she married. To quote the Arthashāstra: 'wives are there for having sons'. Practices such as female infanticide and the neglect of young girls were possibly also developing at this time, especially among higher caste people. Further, due to the increasingly hierarchical nature of the society, marriage was possibly becoming an even more crucial institution for childbearing and the formalization of relationships between groups. In turn, this may have contributed to the growth of increasingly instrumental attitudes towards women and girls (who moved home at marriage). It is important to note that, in all likelihood, these developments did not affect people living in large parts of the subcontinent—such as those in the south, and tribal communities inhabiting the forested hill and plateau areas of central and eastern India. That said, these deleterious features have continued to blight Indo-Aryan speaking areas of the subcontinent until the present day."

It just seems like the old British prejudice which flys for Oxford, but wouldn't even fly in Wikipedia DYK. "

• Paul J Kosmin: Avatipura7 uses his name as supporter of his tormented map but he also never supported such map infact he supports that there was no hole in north eastern Mauryan Empire: (pg 33)

The ancient historians Justin, Appian, and Strabo preserve the three main terms of what I will call the Treaty of the Indus:

(i) Seleucus transferred to Chandragupta's kingdom the easternmost satrapies of his empire, certainly Gandhara, Parapamisadae, and the eastern parts of Gedrosia, and possibly also Arachosia and Aria as far as Herat. (ii) Chandragupta gave Seleucus 500 Indian war elephants.

(iii) The two kings were joined by some kind of marriage alliance (ἐπιγαμία οι κῆδος); most likely Chandragupta wed a female relative of Seleucus.

6- Lack of Neutrality and Biasedness-

Lack of Neutrality : It's really unbelievable that Fowler&Fowler , Avantipura7 and Joshuwa Jonathan not neutral in this case but biased. Avantipura7 and Joshuwa Jonathan were in contact from long time . Fowler&Fowler uploading Avantipura7 worked jpg , what a strong bonding between them.

Biasedness : If anyone is in a race to promote the idea of a "holed map," they need to understand that they should prepare such maps for every historical empire. The Guptas, Shungas, Kanwas, and Mughals all ruled regions that were previously under the influence of Ashoka. If any tribes existed during the time of Ashoka time, then they would have coexisted during the Gupta Empire time as well. However, we cannot proceed to create "holed" maps for all of these empires. It's worth noting that the maps of the Gupta Empire, Mughal Empire, and Shunga Empire on the English Wikipedia (en-wiki) do not have holes. In fact, Fowler&Fowler used their map own uploaded map on the Mughal Empire en-wiki page without including holes for the Marathas. Avantipura7 also created a map for the Mughal Empire, but their map did not include holes either nor used in en-wiki also. Additionally, the Gedrosia region should be included based on historical accounts and the records of Greek historians and Avantipura initially included Gedrosia in his map on July 9, 2018, but subsequently, he seems to have made gradual alterations to the map. Kulke and Rothermund do not support the presence of a hole in the Gedrosia region, yet Avantipura used their names to justify its removal. Furthermore, he appears to have disregarded the accounts of Greek historians and the outcomes of the Seleucid–Mauryan war.

7- Final Concluded Request -

I kindly request Wikipedia administrators to investigate this matter and consider removing the map created by Avantipura7, as it appears to be propagandistic in nature. Additionally, I recommend that in other maps, the Gedrosia region should be included based on historical accounts and the records of Greek historians. Anyone allowed to reply and Support or Oppose and comment his POV except ( Fowler&Fowler , Avantipura7 and Joshuwa Jonathan) to maintain neutrality in this case.

• 
  The propogandist jpg that is needed to remove from English Wikipedia (en-wiki) page.
• 
  Gedrosia should be reinstated based on the accounts of Greek historians Strabo and Appian, as mentioned earlier. This inclusion was removed by Avantipura7 and should be restored to align with historical accuracy.